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Welcome to the kids sleep show, where we help tired parents from around the world to get their children to fall asleep independently, sleep through the night and build healthy sleep habits for life. I’m your host, Courtney Zentz. Now let’s sleep together. All right, thanks, everybody for tuning in. It is a beautiful day here in Philly, and I am joined today by the founder of womb and wellness doula services, Miss Eva Ellis, thank you so much for joining me today. Tell everyone a little bit about yourself. The obvious work you do in the space of postpartum and pre partum care with new Mamas and just introduce us a little bit to woman wellness. Yeah, hi. Well,
thank you for having me. And I love getting to chat with all sorts of different people that get to work with babies and Mamas and young families. So exciting. So you’re totally spot on. I am a birth post and postpartum doula as well as a childbirth educator. So I typically work in the room with pregnant families and, and newborns, and everything that happens nine months before and about that first, year after.
So
my scope is pretty all all inclusive. And I love that I get to see families from sometimes the moment they find out they’re pregnant to well into their kiddos life. And I do lots of fun things beforehand, like make sure families are prepped for their pregnancy delivery, I answer loads of questions every day. And then I actually get to support families through labor and delivery. So sometimes that means laboring at home, and then going to their place of birth, whether that’s at home or hospital birth center, pretty much anywhere in between. And then I get to spend those first couple of precious hours with them after helping with breastfeeding. And making sure mom is set up with postpartum care for those first couple of days. And then I skip to start postpartum visits. So those are kind of where baby sleep comes in a little bit more. And, and that looks like usually, a first visit a week out a second visit two weeks out. And and then if they do a focus part and package with me, then pretty much anytime on their schedule, I come in and we do all sorts of things that could help new parents out sometimes that looks like cooking and cleaning and making sure that the family’s nourished and home is clean and Mama is has a peace of mind around her home. And sometimes that looks like night nursing where you’re staying with baby. Maybe baby is a little bit colicky, and you’re helping to see baby throughout the night. So mama can get that much needed sleep. And you help start that healthy nursing cycle of waking and making sure latches, okay, and babies getting fed, Mama feels good. All of that. It’s a super amazing blessing that I get to discuss to be my job. And I love every second of it. So
that is very, very cool. I love you know, the support, I think for new parents especially is lacking, which is why I got into the pediatric sleep coaching and because you know you are a zombie those first couple months and you’re just trying to figure out what’s going on and your hormones are raging and you have no idea what to expect when this child comes home and frankly doesn’t always go according to plan. I know in the pre partum space you’re probably you know doing a birth plan and setting up ideals for parents I’m sure COVID changed the rules around some things right? As far as like being in the hospital and such and you know, things don’t always go according to plan so I feel like having a doula there to support the what ifs or the change in directive right that that may happen can really be super comforting to new parents especially you know, and for those that have never worked with a doula are just pregnant and go well this episode looks interesting. Talk a little bit about you know, what it what a doula does from you know, pre delivery, right? When is the best time to engage a doula What does it look like? What do you typically do? Is it virtual? Do you come to their house? You know, obviously, with COVID things are a little, you know, dumpster fire ish all over the place. So, you know, talk about what that looks like.
Yeah, and I would love to and so, most of my clients and usually hire me on at the very beginning of their third trimester, very end of their second trimester. Granted, I’ve had clients that are so super excited have said before they even got pregnant. We want you to be or do we’re not even pregnant yet. But when we are, you’re the first to know That’s always super fun and exciting. Um, but sometimes you also have super late clients. So you know, it’s I always say it’s never too late to hire a doula. And that kind of varies depending on who you work with. And but for me, just last summer, I had a client who hired me on three days before she actually delivered. And sometimes you just get in the heat of the moment, and you’re like, I need the support. And I need that now. And it’s a privilege to get to walk into a room with people that you’ve never met and be like, Alright, we’re having a baby today. And how can I help? But yes, like I said, most clients hire me on pretty early in the third trimester. And it kind of looks like that first initial console, we kind of talked about, am I the doula for you, I always encourage families, to not just interview me. But interview three, or four or five or 10 or 20 doulas until they find this is my doula. And because I’m not the doula for everyone. And not every client is for me, it kind of works both ways. Sometimes I meet a family and I say, I don’t know that I’m the right match for you. And but I think this person might be great. Let me point you in their direction. I think that’s super important when working with any provider for your family. And because obviously, especially with being a birth doula, I’m with you, in a very intimate setting, as well as very transformational moment. And you want to make sure that the person that is with you, you’re okay with being that vulnerable around. Because if you can’t just become somebody in the room that you’re not comfortable with. And that makes things a lot harder, when it should be a lot easier. But as well as that. So we kind of get to that first initial console, you hire me on, hopefully. And then we do. Usually I usually do two prenatal sessions with my clients. And in those, depending on where families at sometimes I’ll say, Hey, I think maybe we should have a couple more sessions to go over some more childbirth education. Or maybe you should attend this class with this childbirth educator, something along those lines to kind of see where you’re at with, okay, do you understand how this process is going to look what these stages are going to look like? And then we go from there. So if I feel like you have a handle on what physiologically is going to happen in birth, we kind of go from there. And we say, Alright, let’s look at our options. Who’s your provider? Where are you delivering? What are the things that you want to prioritize? Sometimes, depending on where you deliver, there’s certain things that take priority. And I want to make sure that when you’re in the middle of a contraction, and somebody comes in and asks you a question, and you’re not ready to answer, we can say okay, let’s take a minute. Do you remember when we talked about this is that still the choice that you want to move forward with, and offer little prompts. So all of that work in the back end really, is super important going into labor? Because then you get there. And all you have to say is one word. And you have that little prompt to say, Okay, I need a minute to talk about this, or this is what I want to do. Oh, I totally forgot, we talked about this. And I’m just feeling all the sensation right now, and had no recollection of it. And so a lot of those prenatal meetings is just talking through everything that when you were in the heat of the moment, you were ready, and to say one phrase one word, and, okay, this is what we need to do. And then leading up to the big day, there’s just lots of chat about, okay, well, what are you feeling? And obviously, you don’t always know when that’s going to be but sometimes there’s little symptoms of like, Oh, I’m having a contraction here, there or past my mucus plug, having my water up to my water broke or have bloody show any of those things.
They’re like, Okay, this is here, this is now we are doing this. Um, and then I typically meet my clients once they’re in active labor. And usually, that is a little bit into their labor kind of when it gets intense enough that they’re like, okay, maybe that maybe I need a little help managing these contractions. And then I meet them, either at home or at their place of delivery. And we go from there. I have for comfort measures, informational support, especially like we kind of chatted about I’m sure we will more when things go a little bit awry. We’re like okay, well, we kind of talked about this a little bit in our in our prenatals. This is what’s happening with baby, this is what’s happening with mom. Let’s let’s talk about what our options are. We can wait this out. Most of the time. There’s a little bit of time to wait and talk about things and And then we can say, Okay, I think this is the best choice for my body and my baby. kind of talk through all of those things. And then hopefully things are smooth sailing. And not long after. Well,
depending.
There’s a new baby and a happy, healthy family. And my job for that stage is done.
Cool. That is so fun. And it is such a, I think emotional time for so many families, right? Like it’s your first child, second child doesn’t matter. Right? All you want to do is make sure the baby safe. Baby’s healthy, right. But ultimately, like you’re bringing a new child into the world, which is, you know, I think the coolest part to be a part of Now, obviously, where you’re located. You’re in Arkansas. So you’re doing a lot with oaks in Arkansas, right in Fayetteville? What about like since COVID? Has it changed or adjusted? The way you support families? I know here in Philly, they put some restrictions around who’s allowed in the hospital like for a while people were freaking out because like the husband couldn’t even come in. So I didn’t know like did that change your business? All I have some friends in Ohio that do some doula work, and they’ve actually gone to become more of like a digital doula. So they’re doing digital services. They’re in the hospital digitally on like a zoom with parents since they can’t be in there in person. I’m curious, like, how if at all, has it impacted you? Do you offer digital services? If somebody liked you who was listening today and was like, You know what, I’m not in Arkansas. But I like you. I want to hire you. Right? Like, how does that kind of work? Or doesn’t have to be that in person? connection, per se?
Yeah, um, that’s a great question. It’s one that I feel like I come at every day on Facebook groups, and I get calls even from pregnant friends across the country.
And
so you’re totally spot on with digital doulas. Virtual doula digital doula, all of those fun things. It does make things a little bit more of a challenge. I think. Some doulas have taken it in stride and are phenomenal. I’ve been lucky enough that I don’t have a ton of clients that are out of state, I’ve only kind of virtually helped friend close friends and family. Um, but yeah, it’s like something I would do. I again, I’m lucky enough that in our area, we have a really amazing relationship with actually all of the hospitals. So we have five major hospitals and that moms deliver at in that area. And all of them, we’ve have kind of a Insider, who helps us out a lot, we have some amazing nurse navigators and OB educators. And we really made it a priority to work with those providers, and those care teams and say, Okay, our clients want us there. And we’re a vital part of the birth team. And we aren’t just a support person, we’re a professional support person, we’re not just an extra mom or aunt or friend in the room, we are there they’re paid. And not only that, but we’re paid practitioners like by our clients, and so we’re contracted out with them. And in that professional setting, like you kind of have to say like, we want the same respect, that hasn’t been the case at all hospitals, unfortunately, actually have some really close ties to a lot of doulas in the Atlanta area. And I know it’s been a really big struggle there. But we have been really fortunate that we compiled a giant list of all of our names of doulas in the area. I know all about all 50 of them, either personally, or just through Facebook, or groups, all of that stuff. All of our names are on one big list that they have at all the entrances of the hospitals in our area. And so should a client go into labor and go to hospital? Then we just kind of walk up to the door and say, Hey, I’m here with this client. I’m their doula. Here’s my name on the list. And they let us write in. So yes, for all of the questions about support people and who’s being led in that was a really scary time, there was a brief time where nobody was letting in our area, and they quickly realized, Oh, this isn’t going to work. Because it is a vital point in someone’s life. And nobody should be alone in that. And everyone deserves support during their pregnancy and delivery and immediate postpartum. And, yeah, I think they realize the value of that.
Well, that’s good. And I was gonna say I No, I didn’t personally have a doula, but I have so many friends that did, and that still continued to. I have a husband that I made stay on that side of the bed, so he didn’t have to see what was going on down there. He’s the type that would be emotionally scarred forever if we had that, but my aunt was there. So I would kind of look at her as a doula in a capacity of like, she’s holding the leg and she’s walking me through things and she’s you know, doing whatever she needs. Do down there. So she was my emotional support person, because my mom is up with the big guy in the sky. And it was a really beautiful time to, you know, have her from the fact that I’ve, you know, grown up with her in my life, and then my husband there, and that support is vital. And I think, you know, I was sad to see on the news when they’re like, nobody’s allowed in like, your birthing a child like and I think it is scary because I didn’t know everything was coming from with what’s going on now. But hopefully, as things get progressively better over the next couple months with vaccines and stuff, hopefully that kind of stuff goes back to normal. And I’m so happy for you that it is, you know, I’m back to normal in the Arkansas area. From a postpartum standpoint, I want to switch gears a little bit because I think we read books, right? I have a whole list of books in my closet right here. What to Expect When You’re Expecting, you know how to sleep 12 hours by 12 weeks, the baby sleep book, how to be the best mom possible, right? Like my kids not gonna sock and you know, you get home and you’re wearing a nice diaper, there’s milk shooting out of your breasts, you have no idea what you’re doing, you’re sitting around a mesh underwear, baby’s crying, and you’re trying to figure out like, what do I do with this thing? Right? There’s no manuals, the birthing classes, I feel like are good to get you to a point of like, okay, you have a baby, but at the hospital for us, they were like, see you later, they’re strapped in, okay, by you know, and like, he’s out like, you never hear from anybody again. And I fill out some checklist that is like, are you going to kill yourself? Well, am I going to answer yes, no, no, no, you know, when you leave the doctrine, you’re like, crumbling, like I would crumble in my car almost every day. And I didn’t know at the time, I didn’t yet do what I do now. And you know, you don’t have that postpartum support, depression, anxiety, or hormones are all over you have a life you’re responsible for. And all of a sudden, what was this like perfect little world for many families just like boom, holy cow. What just happened? Right? And so I think the postpartum period for many parents, is that unknown, right? So talk a little bit about like, when you come into somebody’s home postpartum, what do or should they expect from a postpartum doula. I am a certified postpartum doula, I do not practice it, I have it from a balance of my practice standpoint, but I’m not actively going into homes postpartum. So I want you to take some time to talk about what you do in your profession from a postpartum standpoint, you know, night nursing, how long typically that lasts, right? Because, you know, I have friends that had night nurses for months, and months and months, um, you know, just talk a little bit about that postpartum period, because it is so transformational for many families.
Yes. So
I’ll say right off the bat, that it looks wildly different for every family, and that is okay. But it really does break down to a couple of key things that everyone needs. Everyone needs sleep, everyone needs nourishment, and everyone needs to feel heard. And I am really big on each of those. So walking into a postpartum appointment, or a postpartum care session, the very first thing that I do is always try and observe those three. So I will usually take first 30 minutes, maybe more, to just sit and kind of watch. Usually, there’s the jitters of like, oh, there’s somebody in the house, and I have to clean up when I have to offer them things. And it’s always like, No, you don’t, you just have a seat. Let’s just talk for a minute, let’s see how things are going.
It’s
so important to have those check ins. Because as much as I care about you having a healthy baby, I care about you also having a sound mind and feeling healthy and feeling your best. Because when we neglect those things, that’s where those issues like postpartum depression creep in. Not that they aren’t clinical, but there’s some really big ways that we can help combat them. So that when they do arise, you have the skills we have the tools in our toolbox to say, okay, we can take care of this and we can get through this. And this is going to be okay. It doesn’t always feel like it, but it will be and that’s why that support I think is so important. But other than that initial first observation, it usually looks like okay, what have you eaten recently? Oh, you haven’t eaten in six hours because babies cry and needs a diaper change then you have to feed baby and all those things. Okay, let’s get you settled in. Let’s get you something nutritious not just a bag of Cheetos because as easy as it is. It’s so much more important to sit down and have a meal have those proteins and carbs and veggies. Everything that we look at and we’re like oh, of nice like home cooked me like yes, let’s get you fuel fuel is so important. I cannot stress that enough. Let’s get you water. Let’s get you hydrated fed. Seems so basic, but it’s for new families, new people. It’s so quickly forgotten until somebody sits down and says, okay, have we thought about this and not just baby for five minutes, which is hard, and it’s,
it feels selfish.
Um,
but it’s so important.
And then from there we go, okay? How are you feeling? Talk me through what’s going on in your head, there’s not a lot of haven’t heard, not a lot,
or not a lot, nothing
is going to really scare me or scare me away. In this moment. I’m here to support you. And all of your feelings are valid, and you’re heard right now. And the best way for me to support us to hear where you’re coming from, so that I can make sure that you’re getting the care that you need. And sometimes that brings up all of those hard feelings. Maybe it’s, I don’t feel attached to my baby right away, and I totally thought I would. Or I’m feeling really sad or really anxious about this kind of those first signs. And oftentimes, though, things are great. They’re saying, you know, I’m hurting, but that was to be expected. I’m just really tired, and I need a break. Maybe I’m touched out. I need to put baby down and to take care of my own body first. We say okay, let’s go from there. And you said, You’re super sleepy? Well, let’s see what time it is. Do you want to go ahead and take a nap, I’ll watch baby and fold some clothes or tidy the kitchen, which sometimes postpartum doula and housekeeper postpartum doula. And babysitter, postpartum doula, and Night Nurse kind of get confused. And while I’m not any of those things exclusively, I do have skills from all of those things. Now, there’s just times where the best thing that you need his sleep or time away or to quiet time. And if that’s what’s best, like, let’s make that happen. That’s really what I’m there for. And, yeah, so we kind of go from there, it’s sleep, it’s a meal, it’s talking things out. And really, oftentimes, it doesn’t go beyond that. There’s lots of times for questions. If mom is breastfeeding, or chest feeding, and we’re feeling like there’s an issue there, we can talk through that. We can say, okay, actually have a little bit of expertise in this. So let’s see if we can figure out the problem with us. If we can’t, okay, maybe let’s call a lactation consultant or set up an appointment. And because it looks like there’s a further issue that I can’t necessarily help with or diagnose. It happens all the time, super not uncommon. And, or if there’s formula feeding, and more like baby is spitting up after every feeding, and I feel like she’s not taking anything or you’re not gaining weight. Any of those concerns, it’s like, okay, you know, I have a baby scale on my car. So we can do weighted feedings, and stuff that you don’t necessarily have the opportunity to do on your own or, with that new parent mind, think like, oh, maybe this would help. Maybe this would ease my ease my mind. I have all of those tricks
in my tool bag.
Sometimes there’s lots of questions about babywearing or which ends up coming a lot. I think one of the things I hear most from new families is I’m feeling touched out. And especially new moms are constantly holding and feeding and soothing baby. And it’s, it’s a lot, especially if it’s your first baby, you’re not used to constantly having another person be solely dependent on you. And to make that transition can be a really big challenge. Yeah, so there’s just a whole plethora of things that postpartum doulas get to do? Yeah, and I love all of them. It just depends kind of what you need in the moment.
That’s awesome. Yeah, it’s a, I was gonna say it’s one of those where I don’t think you can plan for it. But once you’re in it, knowing that the services and support are there, and are available. I remember calling my friend Laura. I’m like, I just need toilet paper. I just don’t have any toilet paper. And I was like crying on the phone. And she brought over like 50 rolls of toilet paper. And then I you know, we had a picnic at her house and my little guy was just, you know, weak, too old. You know, now he was new, very new. And I have like a nervous breakdown in the backyard because I couldn’t put the movie wrap on and I’m like, oh my baby. I’m a terrible mom. You know, and it just, I’m sorry, keep pitching this sweaters. cashmere, which I guess I’m allergic to because it’s definitely not sitting right. But, um, the you know, just like I was like, I’m gonna have a nervous breakdown. My girlfriend’s like, no, it’s fine. Like, here’s how you do the rap the baby’s fine. Take a breath, you know, when she could see me like crumbling on the inside. And I think as parents especially as a mom, who, frankly like, I always wanted to be good at a job, right? Like, I never wanted to suck at any job I did. I always worked really hard. And I tried really hard even to prepare for my own children. And you just can’t prepare for this sometimes. And I think knowing now looking back on like, six, seven years ago, like, and I wish I had done some things different, like we all do, right? Knowing that there’s support or care out there because it’s a super overwhelming time. And it’s okay not to know what you’re doing. And I, I was too proud to like ask for help, because I’m like, I’m supposed to know that this baby flies out of my vagina and milk sheets out of my boob and I’m supposed to love it immediately and be perfect in every way and have the house clean and dinner cooked and I’m so glad you’re home honey, how was your day? Right? And it’s not the Brady Bunch anymore world. And, you know, I think looking back like I said, I would definitely do things differently from a postpartum standpoint, because I didn’t know what I was in for. I thought I was like, babies, no sleep all the time. They’ll just pop on my boob and life’s good. You know, and you’re just sitting there like, holy crap when I get into you know, and I think I remember high fiving myself about three months. I was walking with my son and I was finally like, Yes, I got this boom, like, and it took 12 weeks for it to all kind of click for me, but those first 12 weeks were like you’re in I felt like I was in a dumpster. Yeah, now like, I am a dumpster fire. And I think it’s important to be real about that like and to know that it’s okay, whether it lasts for a week or 12 weeks, like knowing that there’s somebody like yourself that’s out there to support a parent. I think when most people hear doula, they hear doula for books, right? Like there’s a doula in the hospital. I don’t think a lot of people realize there’s a postpartum doula and a pre partum doula sometimes both, you know, so helping people to understand that, like those services are out there. And you know, something you can do to support a new mom is super beneficial. I mean, from your perspective, like, having seen so many moms after they have their little one, and they’re in this vulnerable place, and you go in there for the first time refer and you know, anytime after that, what would you say would be like the best the best advice to somebody listening today who may be about to have a child and go, Oh, I didn’t even think of a doula or I didn’t know there was a postpartum doula, like, what does that look like? Right? Like, when Can somebody bring you in? Can they just call you and say like, I have a baby sitting on my lap, they’re three days old, and I’m a mess, like, help, right? Like, what does that look like?
Um, well, I guess I’ll start with advice. My biggest advice is that postpartum is hard. And don’t make yourself or let yourself be blind to that. Make sure that you have support. Whether or not that’s a postpartum doula. You don’t necessarily have to have a postpartum doula to have good support. Find that amazing mom, friend from college or church, or wherever that you know them from work sometimes even and say, Hey, I’m about to have a baby. I know, I’m gonna have a lot of questions. Can I reach out to you? And oftentimes, they’re mama themselves. They’ve been through it, they know what’s coming. And I will be hard pressed to find a mom who’s like, no, don’t call me with your questions. Or my postpartum experience was amazing. I don’t know what you’re talking about. This whole
ice diaper and milk thing? Yeah,
like God, sickles, what are those? I mean? Yes. So that’s my biggest advice is just make sure you find a support people’s, it doesn’t have to look like a mom or an aunt or a sister. Because sometimes family dynamics are really, really challenging. And we might feel the pressure be like, well, I’ll just call my mom. Well, if you have a strained relationship, like, This is not the time, maybe make sure that you have those support people that are going to support you. Because a lot of times like we get in those family dynamics of like moms and aunts and sisters, and cousins, and everyone coming in, and they’re like, Oh, we want to come in and we want to see baby and we want to meet this new life. Yeah, that’s so exciting and so valid, but it’s okay to say no as well and say, Hi, I am struggling a little bit right now. Maybe you don’t even go as far as to say I’m struggling. Maybe you say we need a little bit of time. And I am so excited for you need them to we’ve all been waiting nine months for this.
But
right now, we just need a little bit of a break. Say No, it’s totally fine. Just make sure that you have those people that you can really depend on. I think that’s my biggest piece of advice. As far as what to expect. expect it to be hard, but don’t expect it to be impossible. There’s hundreds of 1000s of women who are doing it right this second. And millions and billions of women who have done this before you and will continue to for
as long as time goes on.
It’s hard, it is really hard. But this is one of those moments where you get to lean in to your people. And you kind of get to figure out this new phase of life and You just get to enjoy being home with a brand new baby. Don’t they get lost on you through the crying and the poop and the feeding you you have a new baby. And that’s awesome. But it’s not perfect. It isn’t for anyone. But it is really exciting and don’t don’t lose that joy of having a new baby and all of that hardship.
Yeah, I think that’s super important. And I appreciate it. I I so know that it’s just such a crazy time, I definitely felt more prepared with my second but then you went from man to man coverage zone coverage, you know. So things changed a little bit, you know, when they do with every home. And I think it’s important to know that to your point, every person situation is different. The emotional stability of every person is different. The challenges you’re going to face are different, right? I was a lactation counselor, I am a lactation counselor and I struggled my daughter at a tongue tie and hated my breast milk. And I couldn’t figure out what I was eating that she rejected. It wasn’t a milk protein allergy. But there was something in there was just this in or off, you know, and it took some time to figure it out. And I’m like, you know, you can’t expect things I think to be just this Kumbaya and that it’s totally okay and acceptable to say, I need help. Right. I think as a society, assessing the social media, you’re like mom shamed, right, like
it’s this curated life. Yeah, it’s not that every day.
Yeah. And like, people struggle, and that’s okay. And there’s a there’s help and support out there. And I think that’s the most important thing, you know, that I would tell parents is, get the help and support because it’s there, whether you just need somebody for that day, or whether you want to have somebody in an ongoing, you know, relationship that comes in and makes sure things are good, like the services are there for anything. So why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about how they can find you where the best place is to get you to learn a little bit more about the services and you know, what you provide, even if they wanted to do like, again, I know in the world, they may just be listening today and go I like you, I want to talk with you. Right? Like, what does that look like? How can people find you? Yeah,
um, well, if you’re looking for a doula in general, a great place to look is doula match. And they have local listings for all sorts of doulas, childbirth, educators, all that stuff. As well as sometimes you can check in with your own whoever, whatever provider you’re seeing, they may have contacts for you. So that’s kind of in general to attend recommend, regardless of if you’re working with me or any other amazing doula out there. As far as getting in contact with me, and you, I think we’re will put in the show notes, all of my handles my website, and go head over to my website, and there’s info, you can fill out a contact sheet, and I will get in touch with you. I am pretty regularly read check my email. And I also, I’ll give you my phone number, if you really want to chat. I am not super privy with my information. I love to chat about birthday things and make sure people have support. So I’m pretty open. And
all that stuff is in the notes. I’m sorry, just to confirm. Yes. So everything will be in there. For sure.
But as far as social media goes, I am on Instagram and Facebook at women wellness and super active on both of those channels as well.
I think Yeah, I just think they’re it’s womb and wellness, because it sounded like women wellness. So I just want to make sure yes, so. And wellness on both rice. W Oh,
MB and wellness? Yes.
Perfect. I was like make sure because when I heard it, I heard woman I know it’s women wellness, because we’re talking. But the people listening may not touch when we choose clear so they can find you that’s written No, thank you. And I totally appreciate it. I think that this conversation is certainly necessary. And I’m excited to have some folks check you out. And certainly I’ll put all the notes and information out there. For those of you who are listening today or watching. You can find Ava she’s also in my facebook group slimmer Made Simple, this interview will be out there as well. And if anyone needs anything, please don’t hesitate to reach out to her and just have a chat or a conversation if you’re trying to explore the world of a doula and you happen to be in Arkansas where she is as well. So that would be great. I appreciate you jumping on today. Thank you so much for joining me this is for having me. Hold on one more thing before you go. As a valued listener of the kids sleep show. I want to help you build a great sleeper not just in the times you’re listening to the show. But all day every day. Every week of the year. I have a new Facebook group called slumber Made Simple. It’s a place to gather with other parents looking for sleep support, laughs and the latest in sleep research, to build a family that is rested and at their best day in and day out. If you want to be part of the community where you can get free sleep support, weekly training sessions, unbelievable content and so much more. Head on over to tiny transitions.com forward slash community that’s tiny transitions.com forward slash Communities are head over to Facebook and search slumber Made Simple. drop me a note and let me know when you join. I can’t wait to see you there.

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