Episode 117: How to Start Using a Breast Pump and Pumping Best Practices with Sandy Gree, CLC & Expert Pumping Coach

Disclaimer: Transcripts were generated automatically and may contain inaccuracies and errors.

Welcome to the kids sleep show where we help tired children to fall asleep independently sleep through the night and build healthy sleep habits for Life. I’m your host, Courtney Zentz. Now let’s sleep together.

Hey, everyone, welcome to this week’s episode, I am excited to be joined by Sandy J. Green. She is a pumping expert, a certified lactation counselor and a postpartum doula. And we are chatting all about the beautiful world of breastfeeding and pumping, as a parent. So welcome Sandy to the show and allow you a chance to introduce yourself, maybe tell us some of the listeners all about your history and background in the world of pumping. Thanks, Courtney.

I’m so glad to be on this podcast with you. You are my lifesaver in terms of sleep, you got both my kids asleep. So I’m thrilled to be here talking with you about pumping. So I have two kids, like I said, they’re five and three and and they sleep and they eat. And that’s my my pumping story really started with my son. When he was a baby, we had nursing challenges. And I started to pump instead of nurse. And at the time, I didn’t even know that that was a thing that people did that you you could like just pump into a bottle and then feed it and you could still be breastfeeding. And through that experience. I learned about exclusive pumping. I learned how little support there is for pumping moms, and especially exclusively pumping moms. And so I decided I wanted to be that support. And I made like a total switch in careers from nonprofit sector to lactation. And, and I never looked back I love working with mom’s

awesome. I love it. And you know the question, I think, bigs who should pump, right. And so it’s like one of those questions you get you find out you’re pregnant. And then you go, Oh my gosh, what do I do next? Right, I have to order a pump, I gotta get the books, I got to do the registry, I got to do all the things right. And I think there’s a lot of misguided information if I say it that way, right, Sandy, about who should pump when they should start pumping? And what that looks like. So maybe just take a minute and, you know, answer the first question of who should be pumping? And when do they start? So great

question. I’m going to start with just a little anecdote that when I was pregnant with my first son, I was working in nonprofit world, a colleague, came into my office, dropped a bag on my desk and said, This is a pump, I’m done with it, you’re going to need it and left. And I had no clue what pumping was, I did not know why I would need to be doing it. I didn’t know why this person was handing it off to me, I was so incredibly confused. And that’s because there is a lot of there’s a lot of information swirling around there. And everyone’s situation is so nuanced and so different, that this the answer for who should pump is going to be different for everyone. Basically, we pump when we want to feed our baby breast milk. And for whatever reason we cannot or do not want to put the baby directly to the breast. So maybe that’s because your partner wants to give a bottle at night so that you can get a little extra sleep. Maybe that’s because you’re having you’re having challenges with your supply are your baby’s lash and you want to make sure they’re still getting milk while you figure that out. Maybe it’s because you’re going back to work, and you’re going to be away from your baby. And a lot. One reason why people pump that was a surprise to me when I got into this business is sometimes there are reasons why you don’t want any person, even a baby to be in that part of your body. It’s a vulnerable part of your body. And some people just have a versions for various reasons. And that’s okay, too. It’s pumping is a form of breastfeeding. It’s a legitimate form of breastfeeding. So the answer is really, in some ways, it’s really simple. Anybody who breastfeeds can pump but it’s really going to be nuanced. And it’s going to come down to your personal situation and why you might want to or need to pump instead of nurse.

Yeah, no. And I think that’s great. I mean, I as someone who, you know, did all the research going into having my son Max and I had two totally different experiences with breastfeeding, right. So I had my son Max, I was not a CLC at the time, and he struggled. It was super painful, which nobody prepared you for and then my girlfriend was like, Hey, give it two weeks. And then things kind of level off from a nursing standpoint, but then my sister in law, saying kind of thing. She’s like, here’s a pump, you’re gonna need this. And I was like, okay, when do I do this? She’s like the day you get home from the hospital, and I’m like, Okay, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what the buttons meant. I had no understanding. But I put that thing on and milk shot out. And I was like, Okay, right, I’m starting to get the hang of this. I did it because I was obsessed with. I think, frankly, Sandy, like having to provide breast milk. It’s almost like this thing, where in my mind, I was a failure. And I’ll say it because I think a lot of parents feel it. Like, if I can’t give my kid breast milk, like I’m failing it. And with my son, I was a psychopath about it, and to a detriment to my own mental health, frankly, because I, you know, I had this perception that like, I was a failure of a mother, if I couldn’t breastfeed, I had to make sure I had 100% of all that milk stored when I went back to work full time, it 12 weeks, you know, and I’m like, counting every ounce and looking at what’s going on. And, you know, I was like I would, and it led me down a deep trail of like, postpartum depression, cuz it was like, they would feed and then I would pump then they would sleep, and then I would feed and then they would pump it. I was pumping and pumping and pumping here. But then they were doing all you know, and trying to feed and my nipples are bleeding. And I’m strung out and overtired. And I had postpartum depression, and I didn’t even realize it, you know. And my first journey and experience was like, so different. But it opened up the door for me to also become a Certified Lactation counselor, I’m like, I’m going to crazy town, I need to understand the medical behind this. And then I, you know, got into sleep coaching and different things like that. But with my first son, it was like, I started to pump because of this fear in my mind that like, I would run out of milk, you know, and my daughter, she had a tongue tie. She had a tongue tie and a lip tie. She hated my breast milk. I couldn’t do anything to get her not to scream every time she ate it. And then I give her a bottle of formula because I loosened up between kid one kid to and realize like, she’s cool. And so was he, after he bit me and started taking formula from Costco, right? And you would never nursing it after like eight or nine months, because I squealed like a circus seal. But my daughter, like she just didn’t want anything to do with my milk. And it was something in my milk that I couldn’t figure out because she would take the formula from Costco like a box. And I’m like, Okay, well, it’s not an allergy, she had the tongue type fix, like what’s going on. And they were two totally different experiences, I ended up donating 3000 ounces of frozen breast milk to some mom and a Facebook group, because I was like, I don’t know what to do with all of it, you know, and I pumped every three hours for six months, and had never give her an ounce of that milk. You know, and I think all of us have these unique stories that lead us to where we are, you know, so I know it’s kind of a long winded answer, but it’s like, everybody’s going to be to your point on that different journey. And so trial, you got to figure out what works for you. Yeah.

So I like to say, you know, like I said, there’s the reasons a pump is because you cannot, or do not want to put your baby to the breast. So, like reasons for that could be like I said, the latching or wanting to sleep at night or whatever. Typically, though, I will say I don’t typically suggest that people start pumping right away from day one. The reason is, there’s a few reasons. So one is that you’re you’ve got a lot on your mind. On day one. You just got you know, your home from the hospital, or your birthing center, or wherever, and you’ve got a lot of things to juggle, and you’re nursing a lot at the beginning. And if your baby is developing appropriately, and your doctor who will be doing weight checks, your pediatrician is gonna be doing weight checks really often at the beginning. And your doctor says yet your baby is gaining appropriately. And you’re getting those poopy and poopy diapers at the, you know, the regular amounts and the intervals that they say, there’s no need to pump. So if you don’t want to pump in the beginning, and you feel like you have to because people are telling you to you can ignore those people. You don’t have to if you want to, because you want to sleep a little bit at night or whatever reason, you’re certainly welcome to, but I don’t ever want anyone to think that they have to. And the other thing is, milk supply is really cool. Our bodies are made to pay attention to how much your baby is drinking, and then adjust the amount of milk that you’re making to match that. It’s crazy. It’s so so cool. And if you’re pumping a lot while you are nursing at the beginning, and your body is trying to understand how much milk to make, and you’re actually telling it that you need double And then what you really need that can mess with your body and your supply moving forward. So you can do it. We can talk more about, like the frequency, and maybe how often to do it depending on what your needs are. But it’s really Yeah, at the end of the day, it’s going to be a personal decision. And if you don’t want to do it until you’re going back to work at three months, you don’t have to do it until then. And if you want to do it right away, you can.

Yeah, and I think it’s a beautiful thing to like, give yourself permission, I took advice from everybody, because I didn’t know anybody, you know what I mean. And I didn’t know, I didn’t know what I was doing. I felt very lost and alone. I didn’t have my mom because she had since passed. So it was like I kind of relied on, like friends who had experiences. And that was it, you know, and, and I started to learn about resources, like calling the hospital and knowing they have a breastfeeding support group or finding a lactation counselor. Like, I didn’t know those things existed, I didn’t know what a weighted check in was, you know, so for new parents, I just think an understanding is like, give yourself permission for whatever journey you’re going to be on, I chose to pump. And at the beginning, it wasn’t a ton, but my husband gave the baby a bottle at 10 o’clock every night. So he would do the dream feed, I would go to bed at eight. And then I would handle the rest of the night from whenever the baby woke after that 10 o’clock feeding, he could then get some sleep, I could get some sleep. And we we had a nice little routine. And then he also got to bond and spend a little bit of alone time with both kids, you know? So I think you’re we did a It’s okay.

Yeah, we did a very similar thing with my first at a month, I went out when Avi was about a month old, we decided to let me sleep a little bit. And we would do like shifts. And I would go to sleep at like, you know, eight o’clock. And then my husband Jared would do the feedings. And then I you know, when whenever Avi woke up after that, like after midnight ish, I would do the rest of the night and Jared would sleep. And yeah, it worked great. For us. That worked great.

And it’s it is true, everybody is going to be on such a different journey. I mean, think about, I guess my perspective would be, hey, you’re going back to work. And now you’re going alright, well, I have exclusively breastfed for a couple months, I need to start pumping. And I need to create a schedule. I know one of the things you do in your consulting practice is kind of work with women who were starting to pump, you know, for a variety of different reasons, right? And getting them on a schedule, like how frequent do you need to pump and what does that look like?

So we’re pumping, remember, we’re pumping to replace a feeding, right. And sometimes we’re pumping to replace a feeding that’s happening at that moment, an example of that is going back to work, your baby would be eating several times a day. But you can’t nurse them because you’re in a different location. Sometimes you’re pumping for a feed, that’s going to happen later. So for example, you might pump in the morning, and that bottle will go to your baby in the evening when your partner is giving the bottle. So we want to make sure that we are always replacing, and feed a nurse with a pump. And we want to try to match that as much as we can. So it does, but it doesn’t have to be it doesn’t have to be at the exact same time. So I’ll give another example. You’re going out on a girls night. And you are really excited, you’re going out with your girlfriends, and you’re gonna go out to a restaurant, and then you’re going to a movie. And the idea, you know that you’re gonna be gone for several hours, and your baby’s going to need to eat at least once during that time, right. But the idea of pumping at a movie theater, or in the restaurant seems terrible to you. You can come before you go out. Go out have a great time. And when you come home, you can go to sleep and you know feed your baby as normal during the night. Or if you come home and you’re really uncomfortable because you’re earlier in your postpartum journey and you’ve got a lot of milk, then you pump again before you go to sleep. But it doesn’t have to be at that exact same time. Now, if you’re doing a workday and you’re going to be gone for eight hours, that’s a little bit differently, though we look at that a little differently. In that scenario, we’re looking to pump every two to three ish hours. As as is possible, depending on your job, right? If you’re a nurse in the emergency room working 12 hour shifts, you can’t pump every two hours. That’s okay. You pump what you can and it’s alright if it’s not going to be perfect pumping doesn’t have to be on this perfect, perfect schedule. But that’s sort of the general gist of it is we want to replace the nursing with a pumping session.

Perfect. That’s good. Yeah, I remember I was in corporate at the time when I had my son and I did after drop off, I was in the car for a half hour. And I’m like, You know what, I’m going to pump now. Because like he just ate, but like, there’s milk in there, and we’ll get it out. Right. And I think half the Pennsylvania Turnpike probably saw my boots on my knees in and there are these great, I mean, they make better like different things now that make it easier, but like these freebies, were awesome, cuz I could like pop them in, the milk would go and I could dump it, it was so easy. And so I popped the free museum and I would drive for a half hour. And then to your point, like my calendar, had meetings, nine o’clock, 12 o’clock, three o’clock. And if you scheduled a meeting, you’re hearing eat or eat or in the background, because you didn’t listen to my calendar. I don’t care. Like I’ve pumped up the phone with my team. And they got it, you know, and I was like, Look, you scheduled the meeting. I’m pumping, if you want to talk to me cool. If you’re weirded out by it, then don’t schedule meetings when I’m pumping, you know. So yeah, I think it’s that balance of like, what can you control? Now I was in a corporate setting that had a pumping room. Not everybody’s in that situation, right. But I think to your point, it’s like, give yourself some grace. Like, we’re so hard on ourselves, I was so hard on myself, the first time I had my son. And then by the time I had to develop, I went equally down a rabbit hole quickly. And I was like, I, you know, I’m like sobbing at the CLCs as a CLC, with my pediatrician who’s also an ibclc. And I’m like, they’re like, We don’t know what is wrong. You know, it’s something in your diet. And, you know, it might be that you eat too many greens, like, am I and I’m like, Well, I’m not eating not greens, because that’s healthy, you know. So, you know, it was just, it was a, it was an interesting journey. But it’s like, you just do the best you can like, I think we’re so hard on ourselves as parents to do the things and it’s like, you know what, like, just do your best because pumping can be, like overwhelming, I think for you know, so I’d love to talk about like, just parents are looking now going well, what kind of pump? Do I get?

What? What like,

how does it work? What type of dongle should my nipple touch or not? So maybe you just take a minute and explain in some of the coaching sessions that you do Sandy, like, the sessions that you offer will help take parents if they are unsure through those types of questions, right? Because it is confusing, like I didn’t know your nipples, oh, they shouldn’t touch the side of the thing because they expand and they look crazy big in the pump. Right? But like, I didn’t know that, you know? So what types of things when you’re like assessing? Up, Tom, right? Or pump type for a parent who’s like, you don’t want seven different pumps my insurance case? For one, I want to get one pump? What do I get?

Yeah, so you touched upon one of the more challenging aspects of pumping. And it’s it’s sort of this double edged sword of living in a I like to call this the golden age of pumping, because we’re finally talking about it. And there’s all this innovation happening. And there’s lots of different types of pumps at all different price points and accessories. And it can become an incredibly expensive and like you said overwhelming thing to to do, because none of these things can be returned. They’re all medical devices, right? So you can’t buy a pump, try it and return it. And so it becomes it becomes a question of how you’re going to be using the pump, what your financial abilities are slash what you’re willing to pay very close to different things, what you can what you’re willing to pay for. And then a little bit of trying different things to see what’s going to work because all of the pumps on the market do essentially the same thing. But they’re all a little bit different. And different bodies will respond to different pumps. So when I tell somebody is pregnant, and they come to me and they’re they haven’t or they’re newly postpartum, they haven’t bought a pump yet. I say the first thing you should do is is get whatever your insurance is offering you. If your insurance most insurances these days will offer. The brand spectra are the brand medalla. And then different insurance companies offer different additional ones. But medalla spectra are fantastic pumps. There’s why. And I had both and I had some others, but they’re both. They’re both good pumps. They’re both on reputable brands with good customer service. You can’t really go wrong with either of those as a starting point. And it’s going to be free or heavily, heavily subsidized depending on you know, what your what your healthcare situation is. So that’s a great place to start. And what you should do is, try it. Try the pub, see how it feels. Is it comfortable? Is there no coming out? Here? And then you can sort of troubleshoot and see if you want to, like, see how you’re going to use it. And if you need something different. So for example, if you are a person who needs to be able to pump and be very mobile while you’re pumping, maybe your cook, you need to be able to cook dinner while you’re pumping, or you need to run after a toddler while you’re pumping, then you’re going to be looking at pumps like the baby Buddha, which is a much smaller, it’s like the size of a cell phone. And they sell it with like a lanyard. So you can wear it around your neck, and like walk around the house with it. Or if you don’t need the mobility, but you need really strong because your body doesn’t react as well to to pumps that aren’t quite as strong, then you might look to rent in a hospital grade pump, from your hospital, hospitals have these Symfony pumps that are in very expensive, their $1,000 pumps, and they’re very strong. And you’re not going to buy one of these because of the investment and how long you’ll end up using it for but you can rent them

20 It was 20 bucks a month at our hospital. And I think my insurance subsidized me back if I submitted the invoice.

Yep. So there’s, there’s, again, I talking about pumping can be so incredibly annoying, because I don’t have definitive answers, because there are so many variables. But if you don’t want to have to do the like buying a billion things to check on them to like, see what’s gonna work best. Really, what you are looking for is a pump that is going to suit your needs in terms of flexibility and mobility. You need a pump that is comfortable, it’s never going to feel good, but it should never hurt or be painful. So you need one that feels comfortable. And one that is effective, that’s getting enough milk out that you feel okay with it right. So maybe you’re getting two ounces per pump. And you really want four, then you have to judge you have to sort of do a risk benefit analysis, right? I could try these other pumps that some people have said produce more milk, but am I actually okay with what I’m producing right now and the pump is comfortable, and I don’t want to spend any more money. Okay, so then I can like take that all into consideration. The The one other thing that I will say, and you mentioned this a little bit is the full lounge, this is a super important part. Sometimes it’s called the flange sometimes it’s called the like a nipple shield. It’s the part, you know, looks like a funnel that literally is like the part that’s touching your breast. And a lot of women don’t realize that these come in different sizes. And the size. I don’t know why this is, but most companies will give you a 24 and a 28. And most women are not a 24 or 28. And so you want to not just as don’t just assume that the flange that your pump comes with is the right one for you. You want to test it out and see make sure that it’s the right size, there’s a couple of ways you can do that. So one way is to watch a bunch of YouTube videos of lactation people who are showing you what it’s supposed to look like and then look at it yourself. And I’ll explain what to look for in a second. Another thing that you can do is you can download a nipple ruler, all of your listeners This is incredibly important. Do not pay any money for a nipple ruler. Amazon sells nipple rulers do not pay money for them. You can go on like the medalla website and the specter website and all these websites have these for free. Don’t pay for a nipple ruler. But you can use a nipple ruler which is embarrassing and weird because it’s a it’s a ruler with a little hole in it and you stick your nipple through the hole. But it works. You can also see a lactation counselor who will look at it and size you. But basically we’re looking for like a Goldilocks situation. We don’t want it too big and we don’t want too small. Too big means that you’re that too much breast tissue is being pulled into it. It’s a little hard to explain it without a visual, but only your nipple and the little bit of the areola should be sucked into that pump. If a lot of breast tissue a lot of Ariel is being sucked into it, it’s too big. And conversely, if you are rubbing on the sides, your nipple is rubbing on the sides of that flange then it’s too small. And in both of those situations, the potential problem is both comfort and supply. You’re not going to get as much milk out if it doesn’t fit and you’re going to cause blistering and swelling and other things that are unpleasant and don’t have to come with pumping and I suppose are the main thing

It’s just so it’s so fast, because I feel like I could talk to you for hours. You know about pumping. I mean, I think for you, if you could take a minute Sandy, like, the the viewers, the type of coaching that you do if they’re in this position or the listeners, and they go, gosh, like, I don’t know, man, like, I might listen to this episode and feel like I’m, I’m just not sure where I am in the journey, like you’d mentioned, like local lactation counselors, setting up a consultation with you like you do virtual consultations, you know, like, how do people find you? And like, what are the types of services that you offer that if somebody’s listening to this, like, they can find you before I found you and you became a sleep client, like I went to the breastfeeding Resource Center, it was here in the King of Prussia area, they helped me with all of this, they sold all this stuff. And like I was good with like, I have a new baby. And I’m kind of coming in because I don’t know what I’m doing right. But then I could absolutely have used you at the time of just, I need to set up a virtual console. And I want to talk to somebody about pumping, because I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. And it could be a couple months even in like, how do people know what type of support and how do they reach you?

Yeah, sure. So I have, I have some resources on my website, which is Sandy Jade green.com. And I’m also on Instagram, Sandy dot j dot green. And I have a lot of resources there. A lot of basic information there that’s really useful. You can download a guide on clogs and mastitis, which is an issue that any breastfeeding parent can have, but is much more common in pumping moms just because a pump is never going to be quite as effective as a well latched baby. And so clogs are just more. They’re just more more common in pumping moms. And so I’ve got resources like that online. And like you said, I also do consults, I do 30 minute and hour consults. And they can be booked on my website. And I they’re called pumping Made Simple. That’s the name of the console, because it covers all things pumping. So you’re, let’s say you are three weeks postpartum, and you have not opened your pump box, and you know that you probably will want to and it’s just super overwhelming. That would be a great time to set up a console. And I will go and we will do like a box opening together a virtual, everything I do is virtual. And we’ll go through it. And I’ll explain all the parts and all the buttons and all those kinds of things. Or if you are struggling, I just had a client recently who was doing that triple feed that you that you had talked about earlier, Courtney have like nurse, nurse, feed pump, nurse, feed pump, nurse, feed pump, and it was exhausting. And she was like, there’s gotta be another way. And I said, yeah, there is another way let’s talk about exclusive pumping as an option. And so that like making that transition is something I do a lot of going back to work, like you mentioned, you have to figure out a schedule, and how that’s going to work for you. And sometimes if you’re you know, you’re not in a traditional office job, it can be really tough to think about, even like wrap your brain around how you’re going to do this. And another thing that I do that I’ll mention because I don’t really know anyone else who does this, I I work with a lot of women who need to need to slash want to wean from the pump. So that could be you have been exclusive pumping for a while and you just you’re like up to your eyeballs in the stress and you just don’t want to do it anymore. I get a lot of referrals from women who are in therapy for postpartum anxiety and depression and they just need to stop. And there’s not a lot of lactation consultants that are like really supportive of stopping breastfeeding if you need to. And weaning from a pump is a little different than weaning from, like a baby nursing because you’re in full control. So you need to sort of take these steps to bring your supply down so that you can stop without causing, you know, these clogs or mastitis and or other complications. And we’re going to lot of women who are just ready to be done for one reason or another and need the both technical and emotional support that

and I think it is such a beautiful thing that you offer that you know, because we talked a little bit before I you know, I started recording for this episode. It’s a lot, right and it’s everybody’s on a different journey and you got to give yourself some grace and go down a certain path. And you know, I think people believe that there’s this, like, I see it in the space of postpartum practitioners that we all are right, that there’s this like the nursing side of things and the PA Big side of things. And then the sleep side of things like, you can have a baby that sleeps well, and nurses, you can have a baby that sleeps well and you still pump you can have a baby that you’re still doing both because you’re trying to figure each other out and Babies should always eat when they’re hungry. You know? And, you know, I think just understanding that, like, you can give yourself permission to stop. And you can, it’s okay, you know, it’s my husband when I had, you know, my daughter, I was like, heartbroken. I’m like, I am a CLC. And I cannot nurse this baby, like, what is wrong with me? And he’s like, Well, when you sticker on your boob, she freaks out for three hours every time you feed her, and when you feed her formula, she’s fat and happy and sleep. So we’re gonna go that route, you know, and I’m like, and that was heart wrenching for me to get over. But I was like, she’s a happier baby because of that choice. And we stopped altogether. Pumping and I pumped I you know, I did exclusively pump as I mentioned for like six months, but she never took an ounce of it. You know, I tried oil and and I tried doing all these things. And it didn’t, you know, I finally I was just like, here you go, some, I’m very clean, I don’t drink I don’t take things. You know, like, here’s my she was super grateful and her baby degree with it. So I think you know, the the point of this is like, there’s a lot of different journeys, that every one of you who is listening to this might be on. Mine isn’t right, yours isn’t right. Yours isn’t right, yours isn’t right. Like everybody’s on their own journey. There are support and resources for your parenting style, or support and resources for your journey. Give yourself grace and permission to like, figure out what your journey is without, you know, sometimes the input from outsiders that can be different.

And when I you know, if somebody comes to me for a console, what they should expect, is a practitioner who believes that your mental health is as important as your baby’s physical health, it should not be at the expense of your baby’s health. But your baby cells should not be at expense of yours, when it is possible to when there are other routes available. That can be obviously that can be kind of a dangerous subject in certain medical things, etc, etc. I’m not a doctor, I’m not giving medical advice. But there are ways to your mental health matters. Let’s just leave it at that. Yeah, mental health matters. And it’s okay to make choices that protect your mental health. And I am a very pro formula, pro alternative ways of feeding plan of practitioner I believe that fed is best. And I believe that a a mommy who was taking care of her mental health is the best kind of mommy and, and is going to be a better mommy because of it. And all of these things are important. And that’s that’s how I work with clients. It’s finding that line, let’s make sure our babies are very healthy, and thriving and getting everything they need. And also, while we’re doing that, let’s make sure that you are taking care of yourself in whatever ways you need to and can given your reality and your situation.

And I love that because I feel the same way about sleep like everybody’s on a different journey. And you’ve got to do what works for you. But you’re just such a beautiful spirit. I love the work you do. And I love that we have stayed connected for all these years. You know, all these years later, with both kids. And it’s just, I respect you as a practitioner, I think the work you do with women is beautiful, because it’s not a judgement zone. It’s a like, let’s figure this out for your unique situation, which is so crucial in a time of where it feels like things are just heavy in a variety of areas around this. But it’s just thank you so much for sharing some of this, I will share all of the information to Sandy how to find her, you know, and all the great resources that she has in the Episode Notes so that folks can find you and I just want to say thank you. You’re a beautiful friend, and I love what you’re doing. And I hope that we have great conversations about pumping and about breastfeeding because it’s like, Absolutely, I

don’t feel like it’s talked about enough. I agree. And thank you so much for having me. This has been great.

One more thing before you go we have the largest library of free sleep training content available for children of all ages. Jump on over to tiny transitions.com and learn more about how we are supporting and changing the quality sleep that your family gets one family at a time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai